spillproof
Feb 18, 10:33 PM
Jobs is a robot sent from another planet, all they have there are black turtle necks and jeans.
Stevey is ballin.
Stevey is ballin.
sarge
Mar 25, 09:08 AM
This serves to highlight why someone like Steve Jobs is so important to a corporation. Most business leaders ( at least the ones I've met on planes ) suffer from an utter lack of imagination. Generally speaking they can only understand things in terms of powerpoints and spreadsheets. Its too bad because Kodak had a lot of brainpower and imagination under their roof and they didn't take advantage of it. Now it's all ex post facto and woulda coulda shoulda.
KnightWRX
Apr 15, 12:26 PM
zimbra, pop/imap
what a joke. firewall guys, we want email on our phones. we need to open the firewall on a few more ports
exchange is database based which makes it easier and cheaper to manage it
Wait, how does Exchange being database driven have anything to do with Firewall ports of POP/IMAP protocols exactly ? Exchange does the same POP/IMAP protocols and if you want your phones to access the system using those protocols on an Exchange server, you'll have to open the same firewall ports... Are your 2 statements even related ? Do you even realise Zimbra's backend is also database driven, except they use a much more standard RDBMS (MySQL) rather than Exchange's proprietary EDB format (which is loosely based on MDB, since both use the JET database engine, a far inferior database format that's more akin to SQLite than to a real RDBMS).
But of course, you know all of this right ?
And are you suggesting that push based e-mail requires a "database driven" backend in any sort of way ? Because that would be quite ludicrous a claim a to make. And of course, are you suggesting only Exchange does push based e-mail ? Because that would be ignoring Zimbra's Z-Push functionality...
The fact is, AD, Exchange, they are so widespread exactly because of what I said earlier : Microsoft got their monopoly from IBM in the 80s and then proceeded to leverage at every chance to make solutions that do not inter-operate well. AD is integrated into Windows client tightly, it's a pain to make it work for anything else as far as SSOs go. Exchange is a success thanks to Outlook's widespread use, which is thanks to Office's dominance, which achieved it through Windows widespread use on the desktop.
This is typical Microsoft modus operandi and why I have ethical and moral reasons to not work with their products as much as I can personally help it.
Your SQL server example is also short-sighted. A 1/4 the cost of Oracle ? No duh, you're getting 10% of the product. Typical though that people look for Oracle when their needs don't even require it. It's just the best there is right now, and of course, you have to pay for that. However, you don't always need the best, in fact, Oracle is overkill for about 90% of RDBMS use out there.
This is all moot, the subject of this thread is Apple hiring a Data center manager, not a product manager, that used to work at Microsoft. I see no problem in this, the guy is probably very qualified.
what a joke. firewall guys, we want email on our phones. we need to open the firewall on a few more ports
exchange is database based which makes it easier and cheaper to manage it
Wait, how does Exchange being database driven have anything to do with Firewall ports of POP/IMAP protocols exactly ? Exchange does the same POP/IMAP protocols and if you want your phones to access the system using those protocols on an Exchange server, you'll have to open the same firewall ports... Are your 2 statements even related ? Do you even realise Zimbra's backend is also database driven, except they use a much more standard RDBMS (MySQL) rather than Exchange's proprietary EDB format (which is loosely based on MDB, since both use the JET database engine, a far inferior database format that's more akin to SQLite than to a real RDBMS).
But of course, you know all of this right ?
And are you suggesting that push based e-mail requires a "database driven" backend in any sort of way ? Because that would be quite ludicrous a claim a to make. And of course, are you suggesting only Exchange does push based e-mail ? Because that would be ignoring Zimbra's Z-Push functionality...
The fact is, AD, Exchange, they are so widespread exactly because of what I said earlier : Microsoft got their monopoly from IBM in the 80s and then proceeded to leverage at every chance to make solutions that do not inter-operate well. AD is integrated into Windows client tightly, it's a pain to make it work for anything else as far as SSOs go. Exchange is a success thanks to Outlook's widespread use, which is thanks to Office's dominance, which achieved it through Windows widespread use on the desktop.
This is typical Microsoft modus operandi and why I have ethical and moral reasons to not work with their products as much as I can personally help it.
Your SQL server example is also short-sighted. A 1/4 the cost of Oracle ? No duh, you're getting 10% of the product. Typical though that people look for Oracle when their needs don't even require it. It's just the best there is right now, and of course, you have to pay for that. However, you don't always need the best, in fact, Oracle is overkill for about 90% of RDBMS use out there.
This is all moot, the subject of this thread is Apple hiring a Data center manager, not a product manager, that used to work at Microsoft. I see no problem in this, the guy is probably very qualified.
iJohnHenry
Apr 9, 08:58 PM
Are you suggesting it is harder to abort than to raise a child?
Oh no, you cant get away with logic like that here, especially as you are male.
Men should just butt-out of this discussion altogether, IMNSHO.
Oh no, you cant get away with logic like that here, especially as you are male.
Men should just butt-out of this discussion altogether, IMNSHO.
more...
arkitect
Feb 19, 11:33 AM
I give up. :rolleyes:
I know the feeling. :D
I tried to put the Obama/Hu/Ballmer January meeting in perspective since this story first appeared. (Links and all…) But heh, fanboys and galls will believe what they want to believe.
:o
Anyway:
I'll try again:
Steve Ballmer was in France on the day the dinner party was held, there to receive (http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/corporate/obama_toasts_tech_heavyweights_ballmer_not_present.html) the Legion D’Honneur from President Nicolas Sarkozy. And it’s pretty hard to be in two places at once, especially when they’re a few thousand miles apart.
Admittedly Ballmer's French is dire, still he tried.
Linky (http://www.01net.com/editorial/528445/steve-ballmer-%28microsoft%29-promu-chevalier-de-la-legion-dhonneur/?r=/rss/actus.xml)… and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYKjFfkqBmo)…
Edit:
And… cue the usual "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys" posts
I know the feeling. :D
I tried to put the Obama/Hu/Ballmer January meeting in perspective since this story first appeared. (Links and all…) But heh, fanboys and galls will believe what they want to believe.
:o
Anyway:
I'll try again:
Steve Ballmer was in France on the day the dinner party was held, there to receive (http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/corporate/obama_toasts_tech_heavyweights_ballmer_not_present.html) the Legion D’Honneur from President Nicolas Sarkozy. And it’s pretty hard to be in two places at once, especially when they’re a few thousand miles apart.
Admittedly Ballmer's French is dire, still he tried.
Linky (http://www.01net.com/editorial/528445/steve-ballmer-%28microsoft%29-promu-chevalier-de-la-legion-dhonneur/?r=/rss/actus.xml)… and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYKjFfkqBmo)…
Edit:
And… cue the usual "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys" posts
jbernie
Dec 27, 11:07 PM
No it's not banned. They are intentionally trying to make it more difficult for you to buy it. You have to do the footwork yourself to get it. It is unprecendented for a company to want to make their product more difficult to buy.
oh my.. poor baby... such a hard life you lead... having to actually go do something yourself, next you will tell us how you have all of your mail hand delivered to you on a silver platter and your butler or maid reads it all to you.
Given how many members of MacRumors don't even have an Apple store in their city let alone state or country you come of as a whinger who needs sympathy when in reality you have nothing to complain about in the first place.
Maybe the truth is you are complaining about losing your easy way to get iPhones through fraudulant means and selling them for a profit? I mean, why else would you suggest that AT&T is lying about fraud as potential reason for blocking online purchases in your area?
Go take a walk, you can probably hit 5 AT&T resellers of some sort or Apple stores throwing a baseball from your front doorstep.
oh my.. poor baby... such a hard life you lead... having to actually go do something yourself, next you will tell us how you have all of your mail hand delivered to you on a silver platter and your butler or maid reads it all to you.
Given how many members of MacRumors don't even have an Apple store in their city let alone state or country you come of as a whinger who needs sympathy when in reality you have nothing to complain about in the first place.
Maybe the truth is you are complaining about losing your easy way to get iPhones through fraudulant means and selling them for a profit? I mean, why else would you suggest that AT&T is lying about fraud as potential reason for blocking online purchases in your area?
Go take a walk, you can probably hit 5 AT&T resellers of some sort or Apple stores throwing a baseball from your front doorstep.
more...
IntelliUser
May 3, 12:16 AM
Some perspective
http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/canada2011.png
http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/uscandidates2008.png
http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/eu2008.gif
http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/canada2011.png
http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/uscandidates2008.png
http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/eu2008.gif
eawmp1
Apr 9, 05:34 AM
Considering we have evidence to suggest PP workers aiding and abetting pimps and child prostitutes (fake) in acquiring abortion I don't see how lying and doctoring documents is above them. A lie from the physician and the paperwork for that abortion getting "misplaced" are all it takes.
Also I'm very surprised at only one website "exposing" her and a couple sites commenting on it. Abby Johnson lying would come out as a bang not a whimper.
In most cases, it is a prosecutor's (or is that persecutor's) responsibility to produce evidence of wrongdoing.
Also I'm very surprised at only one website "exposing" her and a couple sites commenting on it. Abby Johnson lying would come out as a bang not a whimper.
In most cases, it is a prosecutor's (or is that persecutor's) responsibility to produce evidence of wrongdoing.
more...
jellomizer
Nov 2, 11:30 AM
Apple retail store statistics imply that around 50% of folks purchasing a Mac are new to Mac. ...so new blood appears to be joining the platform.
I would think that a large portion would be new Mac Users. If it was people upgrading you will see a noticeable drop in market share right after apple announced the switch to intel. (With everyone waiting for the intel chips) but any drop from that anouncement didn't seem to effect much. So I would assume that it is from new people. Because now the PC vs. Mac arguments are getting really picky.
Old Arguments.
Intel Chips vs. Power PC chips in speed: Argument resolved Apple is now all Intel.
One Mouse button: Argument resolved with OS X supporting 2 button mice, Mighty Mouse alling right and left mouse clicks, Macbook Pros two finger click to emulate right mouse click.
Price: Mostly resolved. Now with the ability to judge the systems spec to spec it is easier to show that Macs are competive in price with their PC Counterparts.
New Arguments.
Video: Slow /underclocked video cards. And not the greatest resolution for laptop displays.
Keyboard size: The keyboards are slightly smaller then PC keyboards.
Choices: Most apples are not as configurable as PC. You cant have a barebone el Cheapo system. Or something that is slightly better then a MacMini but not quite a iMac.
But these new arguments are much more minor. So it should increase new sales for people waiting for the arguments to be resolved. Also by the fact that boot camp allows windows to run. It allows them to have a comfort catch if they really hate OS X they can always run windows like they did before.
I would think that a large portion would be new Mac Users. If it was people upgrading you will see a noticeable drop in market share right after apple announced the switch to intel. (With everyone waiting for the intel chips) but any drop from that anouncement didn't seem to effect much. So I would assume that it is from new people. Because now the PC vs. Mac arguments are getting really picky.
Old Arguments.
Intel Chips vs. Power PC chips in speed: Argument resolved Apple is now all Intel.
One Mouse button: Argument resolved with OS X supporting 2 button mice, Mighty Mouse alling right and left mouse clicks, Macbook Pros two finger click to emulate right mouse click.
Price: Mostly resolved. Now with the ability to judge the systems spec to spec it is easier to show that Macs are competive in price with their PC Counterparts.
New Arguments.
Video: Slow /underclocked video cards. And not the greatest resolution for laptop displays.
Keyboard size: The keyboards are slightly smaller then PC keyboards.
Choices: Most apples are not as configurable as PC. You cant have a barebone el Cheapo system. Or something that is slightly better then a MacMini but not quite a iMac.
But these new arguments are much more minor. So it should increase new sales for people waiting for the arguments to be resolved. Also by the fact that boot camp allows windows to run. It allows them to have a comfort catch if they really hate OS X they can always run windows like they did before.
BeamWalker
Mar 17, 05:03 AM
I could only dream about the "high" US Prices here in Germany. We pay about 1,50 € (2,09 $)/ Liter 98. That is around 5,70 € (7,95 $) / US Gallon. 3 weeks ago it was almost 10cent/liter higher though, so I call myself lucky.
more...
Howardchief
Apr 5, 05:07 PM
Exacly what a friend of mine said when he got his new macbook and found out he needed to buy new adapters since in the 3 years they removed many (such as the analogue audio ports)
I don't understand this. Could you or someone explain this to me please?
I don't understand this. Could you or someone explain this to me please?
rdowns
Apr 29, 09:13 AM
And I thought you were all about fiscal responsibility? Why is it wrong to tax those who use the roads the most?
Should we tax those in high crime areas more because police respond there more often?
Should we tax those in high crime areas more because police respond there more often?
more...
AP_piano295
May 2, 02:03 PM
So what is the root cause of terrorism? Enlighten us.
Off the top of my head:
-Poverty
-Lack of Education
-Resentment (Much of It Deserved) towards Western Nations
-Religious Fanaticism (which generally correlates with a lack of education)
If you've ever seen Charlie Wilson's war you might recall one part at the end of the movie. Wilson was able to convince congress/senate etc. to allocate hundreds of millions of dollars to support the Afghan's fight against the Russians. But at the end of all this Wilson attempted acquire a mere million dollars to build schools and promote education in Afghanistan, he wasn't able to get this funding.
I believe Wilson's famous quote went something like:
"We did a great thing, but we fcked up the end game"
We live in a world where unfortunately violence is sometimes necessary. But violence doesn't "solve" problems, it can sometimes forestall a greater disaster. Unless you fortify violence with something positive (like education) you're simply opening the door to more (and often greater) violence in the future.
Off the top of my head:
-Poverty
-Lack of Education
-Resentment (Much of It Deserved) towards Western Nations
-Religious Fanaticism (which generally correlates with a lack of education)
If you've ever seen Charlie Wilson's war you might recall one part at the end of the movie. Wilson was able to convince congress/senate etc. to allocate hundreds of millions of dollars to support the Afghan's fight against the Russians. But at the end of all this Wilson attempted acquire a mere million dollars to build schools and promote education in Afghanistan, he wasn't able to get this funding.
I believe Wilson's famous quote went something like:
"We did a great thing, but we fcked up the end game"
We live in a world where unfortunately violence is sometimes necessary. But violence doesn't "solve" problems, it can sometimes forestall a greater disaster. Unless you fortify violence with something positive (like education) you're simply opening the door to more (and often greater) violence in the future.
justcallmepete
Aug 19, 11:50 AM
cannot log into the new version. Restored the previous one which works. Really weird...:o
are you jailbroken? do you have biteSMS installed? if so, thats probably why. if you go to SBSsettings > mobile substrate addons > and then turn off biteSMSsb, it will work normally. but im sure as hell not giving up my biteSMS for a facebook update that has a non functional locations feature (which even when it works i will not use) and background photo uploading. if you dont have the 5 seconds to wait for a picture to upload, maybe you shouldnt be wasting your time on facebook anyway.
are you jailbroken? do you have biteSMS installed? if so, thats probably why. if you go to SBSsettings > mobile substrate addons > and then turn off biteSMSsb, it will work normally. but im sure as hell not giving up my biteSMS for a facebook update that has a non functional locations feature (which even when it works i will not use) and background photo uploading. if you dont have the 5 seconds to wait for a picture to upload, maybe you shouldnt be wasting your time on facebook anyway.
more...
Raid
May 3, 10:25 AM
Don't ever underestimate conservatives. Sorry for exporting our stupidity Canada. Hopefully, you guys figure this out fast and don't lose too much of what you have built. Yeah, you might want to hold off on your move to Canada... This is going to be an interesting 4 years.
I was wrong about this election, I had posted elsewhere this was not going to change much, but I didn't realize that the Liberals and the Bloc were that weak. The losses of the Bloc boosted the NDP seats in Quebec, and the Liberal weakness helped both the NDP and Conservatives elsewhere.
The election was pretty crazy, take Ignatieff (who has now resigned BTW) even if you are leader of a party, and your riding has been a stronghold for your party, don't ignore it completely! Then again, check out Bev Oda; apparently you can misuse public money, make very questionable decisions as a minister, lie to parliament and get caught and force your minority government to fall in a vote of non-confidence... but as long as you play nice with the conservative leadership and remain silent, the people will elect you in a landslide. :rolleyes:
... I just don't get it.
I was wrong about this election, I had posted elsewhere this was not going to change much, but I didn't realize that the Liberals and the Bloc were that weak. The losses of the Bloc boosted the NDP seats in Quebec, and the Liberal weakness helped both the NDP and Conservatives elsewhere.
The election was pretty crazy, take Ignatieff (who has now resigned BTW) even if you are leader of a party, and your riding has been a stronghold for your party, don't ignore it completely! Then again, check out Bev Oda; apparently you can misuse public money, make very questionable decisions as a minister, lie to parliament and get caught and force your minority government to fall in a vote of non-confidence... but as long as you play nice with the conservative leadership and remain silent, the people will elect you in a landslide. :rolleyes:
... I just don't get it.
.jpg "Best friend quotes and sayings")
TheJae
Mar 24, 02:26 AM
It must be those pesky water sensors. :D
LOL nice one there :P however the army might be able to overlook water damage in dry areas like Afghanistan
LOL nice one there :P however the army might be able to overlook water damage in dry areas like Afghanistan
more...
Hallivand
Apr 19, 09:43 AM
Sometimes knowing about iOS in advance ruins the fun at WWDC....
baryon
Jun 18, 01:57 PM
Woah... I would partition a 2TB SHXC card and use 1TB for Time Machine and the other half for Final Cut Pro! On freaking 3 square centimeters!
Peace
Mar 26, 05:29 PM
#1 there is no front page news here... Sesiously people? It's two guys having coffee and one overheard line someone claims of heard without any real substance or context.
...but to add to the humor aspect going on here... I think Jobs wears the same thing every day to express solidarity with all the Apple users that have to settle for fewer choices and options than PC users.
You want blu-ray? Look I want a shirt I don't pull over my head every morning, but I get by..
You want a replaceable battery in your iPhone? Look I want a different pair of shoes but I get by...
You want USB ports on the iPad? Look I want to wear shorts some time, but I get by...
You do realize one of these "guys" is being indirectly sued by the other don't you ?
...but to add to the humor aspect going on here... I think Jobs wears the same thing every day to express solidarity with all the Apple users that have to settle for fewer choices and options than PC users.
You want blu-ray? Look I want a shirt I don't pull over my head every morning, but I get by..
You want a replaceable battery in your iPhone? Look I want a different pair of shoes but I get by...
You want USB ports on the iPad? Look I want to wear shorts some time, but I get by...
You do realize one of these "guys" is being indirectly sued by the other don't you ?
scaredpoet
Dec 27, 09:49 PM
. You would have to believe that AT&T is willing to lose all the online sales from the iPhone on Christmas to stop some thieves.
They wouldn't lose ALL online sales, just the ones from certain zip codes where it believes fraud is high.
They wouldn't lose ALL online sales, just the ones from certain zip codes where it believes fraud is high.
WildCowboy
Nov 21, 04:10 PM
hmm... i wonder if they're a public company. If they can get rid of those problems, and what they're talking about actually works, then i think that company's stock will get pretty high
No...they're not public.
No...they're not public.
porovaara
Sep 14, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by gopher
When your stage is 3 times longer, you have to go three times as fast to catch up.
What? That isn't even remotely how pipelines work. The problem with large pipelines with many stages is when there is a miss in branch prediction. At that point everything already in the pipeline is wasted. Branch prediction failure is a very very bad thing. Fortunately both AMD and Intel have gotten really good at it as they have ramped up the stages. This can also be mitigated some with damn good compilers (of which Intel is good at making, but no one really uses).
Macs are awesome integrated platforms. However the G4 CPU is now an old dog.
edit: typos
When your stage is 3 times longer, you have to go three times as fast to catch up.
What? That isn't even remotely how pipelines work. The problem with large pipelines with many stages is when there is a miss in branch prediction. At that point everything already in the pipeline is wasted. Branch prediction failure is a very very bad thing. Fortunately both AMD and Intel have gotten really good at it as they have ramped up the stages. This can also be mitigated some with damn good compilers (of which Intel is good at making, but no one really uses).
Macs are awesome integrated platforms. However the G4 CPU is now an old dog.
edit: typos
scem0
Sep 14, 10:43 PM
Dont you think that chip would be a little to hot... :D . Well, I fully agree with OS X being the best. But the OS and the quality apps are all that is going for apple. Apple lacks speed, but I cant blame apple for that (stupid moto :rolleyes:), but I can blame them for not dumping moto a long time ago. If apple computer were just as fast as PCs there is no way I would think about getting near a 'peecee', but they arent as fast :(...
MacBandit
Sep 14, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by King Cobra
verbose, do you ever give newbies a break with typos these days? :rolleyes: :D
Great posts, guys. Well worth reading. But I think some of you need to take a closer look at WHY MHz/GHz doesn't matter as much.
First of all, the Px does not have the Velocity Engine, and OS 10.1/2 uses it. There is a dramatic performance over the G4 (and especially later G3s) with 10.2, as the operating system is now more effeciant. Also, OS X takes advantage of dual processors to a certain degree (maybe an extra 50 percent or so). Finally, when you take a look at the new PowerMacs, you are looking at 4MB of L3 Cache (w/ dual 1.25GHz). The Px don't seem to have that (if any). So, basically, that would bring a 64-bit system (in terms of the P4) to about 4 or 5GHz right there.
Now, take a look at the PC. Sure, the PC has incredible boot time, is great for playing games, and has a quick OS. However, the P4 lacks the necessity of an effecient L1 Cache. I do not see how 4Kb will provide enough memory for the complex operations tha Macs can handle. So, instead of a 4.7GHz, you're looking at, maybe, 3.x or 4GHz, assuming, with this new chip, the L1 cache has remained unchanged.
First of all what do you consider great boot times? Not that this matters a lot. I have a new Dual Ghz/DDR and it starts from cold boot to login in screen in 27secs with 10.2 and from login to operating finder is nearly instantaneous.
Second of all as I have stated before the true reason Mhz doesn't matter is because something like %98 of all computer users are not power users these are the people that will go buy a new computer tomorrow and if there is a 2.8Ghz computer sitting next to a 800Mhz computer they couldn't care they're going to buy the cheap one. They don't even care how much ram it has. I know this because I went computer shopping with my boss for work(yes for a PC). He wanted my help. Well little help I was he bought the cheapest computer he could get with 64MB of Ram I suggested we upgrade it later and he agreed well that was 2 years ago still it sits with 64MB of RAM in it. Oh and I might add it still has all the stickers on the front of it. These people don't care about this stuff all it's used for is mail and the occasional websearch and most people are like this.
verbose, do you ever give newbies a break with typos these days? :rolleyes: :D
Great posts, guys. Well worth reading. But I think some of you need to take a closer look at WHY MHz/GHz doesn't matter as much.
First of all, the Px does not have the Velocity Engine, and OS 10.1/2 uses it. There is a dramatic performance over the G4 (and especially later G3s) with 10.2, as the operating system is now more effeciant. Also, OS X takes advantage of dual processors to a certain degree (maybe an extra 50 percent or so). Finally, when you take a look at the new PowerMacs, you are looking at 4MB of L3 Cache (w/ dual 1.25GHz). The Px don't seem to have that (if any). So, basically, that would bring a 64-bit system (in terms of the P4) to about 4 or 5GHz right there.
Now, take a look at the PC. Sure, the PC has incredible boot time, is great for playing games, and has a quick OS. However, the P4 lacks the necessity of an effecient L1 Cache. I do not see how 4Kb will provide enough memory for the complex operations tha Macs can handle. So, instead of a 4.7GHz, you're looking at, maybe, 3.x or 4GHz, assuming, with this new chip, the L1 cache has remained unchanged.
First of all what do you consider great boot times? Not that this matters a lot. I have a new Dual Ghz/DDR and it starts from cold boot to login in screen in 27secs with 10.2 and from login to operating finder is nearly instantaneous.
Second of all as I have stated before the true reason Mhz doesn't matter is because something like %98 of all computer users are not power users these are the people that will go buy a new computer tomorrow and if there is a 2.8Ghz computer sitting next to a 800Mhz computer they couldn't care they're going to buy the cheap one. They don't even care how much ram it has. I know this because I went computer shopping with my boss for work(yes for a PC). He wanted my help. Well little help I was he bought the cheapest computer he could get with 64MB of Ram I suggested we upgrade it later and he agreed well that was 2 years ago still it sits with 64MB of RAM in it. Oh and I might add it still has all the stickers on the front of it. These people don't care about this stuff all it's used for is mail and the occasional websearch and most people are like this.
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